Sometimes I go on r/ebikes and get stuck into various #ebike culture wars... Strange as it is to get good ideas on bicycling from the USA, the class system for ebikes makes a lot of sense. Not the specific classes they've chosen (IMO) but understanding that ebikes can have very different characteristics to serve different needs, and they should have different requirements and privileges.
Think we need some technical innovation in controls... (cont)
Sometimes I feel very out of love with ebikes. That using an #ebike to feel safer in traffic or travel long distances in sprawling suburbs is a necessary but ugly temporary accommodation to poor cycling conditions and car-oriented design.
But hills exist even in a carless state of grace, and are the 'killer app' for ebike-as-bike-but-better, for me. So ebikes really need to be able to handle hills well. And cargo, and cargo on hills.
Not sure where I'm going with this, just wandering. Maybe a flourishing and diverse micromobility sector actually needs less emphasis on regulating vehicles and more on behaviour, as for cars. Nothing about your vehicle stops you from driving 150km/hr through a pedestrian crossing. Only legal enforcement and social norms, which are currently lagging behind in cities without a cycling history.
@jroper I think you’re right. I regularly have 2 kids plus their bags on the e-bike for the school / kindy run and 250W can feel a little under powered on steep inclines. It makes them manageable, but not effortless, which means the setup won’t be an attractive car replacement for many.
The suggestion of more power with controls that mean it can only be dolled out to maintain the same effectivene performance under reasonable loads is a good compromise.
@jroper and I’d prefer to see these kinds of performance limits imposed on cars, rather than going the other way and losening the constraints on emobility vehicles.
@milesmcbain Yes agree for both.
Btw, I was wondering what jurisdiction you ride in, and it took a while to work out you're in Australia. Is that intentional?
@jroper No sorry not intentional, that’s a good point, I should probably add something reflecting location to profile. Im in Brisbane!
@milesmcbain Ah cool. I always kinda assumed you were German, not sure why... something about the photo and lots of good data scientists there
@jroper a hearty lol was had here at that 😂
@jroper my e-bike cope with hills etc. but it not a cargo and “only” weights 20kgs. But it’s speed is limited to 25kmph, which in my opinion makes them more dangerous in traffic than need be. Granted not so much an issue for cargo’s.
35kmph is much more practical and safer imo.
@Steveb Safer for you, in mixed traffic situations. But the power required for that performance (maintaining you at 35kmph on the flat) may be unsafe in other situations (accelerating from 0 in a shared space with pedestrians). Depends how it's set up. Thus thinking about more complex controls and rules than uniform speed limits or power limits.
@jroper hmm, your over complicating things, and putting management restrictions on cyclists that don’t exist for cars. When the damage to other road users by cyclists is almost nonexistent compared with motor vehicles.
Cyclists need to be very carefully not to promote over management of cyclists in an attempt to placate the anti cyclist brigade.
@jroper I suppose the other thing to mention here is that the majority (I suspect) of e-bikes are already able to maintain such speeds. In so far as they’re either in the US, which has a 20mph max assist level. Or they are legal e-bikes that have been chipped or illegal e-bikes which have no max assist speed.
@Steveb I thought it was overcomplicating things until we had a few recent accidents in Sydney with pedestrians getting knocked over and not nonexistent damage.
True about not placating people but... to me current Australian restrictions (same as EU rating) are equally over-management, but neither effective for safety, nor useful for riders.
In Australia we have a 25kmph (15mph) assist cutoff and a 250W power limit.
@jroper The simple solution to the "almost" nonexistent issue of peds getting knocked over by bikes, regardless of how the bike is powered is super simple: Cycle paths. (The solution is super simple, implementation perhaps not).
But of course, even that, as with cars and roads, won't stop it 100%.
That said, serious injury/death of peds by cyclists is so small, it's (as I said) almost nonexistent. So... Solution to a problem that doesn't (almost) exist?
@Steveb relative to the tiny number of ebikes in Sydney it does seem quite existent.
Cycle paths yes obviously fix many problems. But there will still be contentious spaces. Can I ride through the local park on my ebike or do I have to go around it/park outside? If yes, what kind of ebike? At what speed?
@Steveb a lot of ebikers seem unwilling to either give up freedom to ride through parks etc, or freedom to go at whatever speed they like. That’s what I mean by the ebike culture wars. The community (insofar as there is one) very split on with these issues.
@jroper Don't understand. Do you mean that some ebike riders go too fast in parks etc.? This sadly is always going to be the case. Like some people drive too fast. Not everyone is going to use any tool responsibly. But it's not right to limit everyone because of a minority.
I think you need to be very careful about using words like ebike culture wars. The culture war ebikes face is from drivers who want anything that isn't a car banned.
@Steveb Sure but like... we ban motorbikes from riding on footpaths in parks, even though they would technically fit. Even if they want to ride super slowly to get to a picnic spot. Why? At what point should the same reasons apply to ebikes? In what spaces?
Yeah, I feel safe on Mastodon that anyone who follows me is basically pro-bike, so I don't worry about that kind of thing much. I would speak differently in a different forum, and may not keep this thread around forever.
@jroper ok. Now I see where you are coming from. So yes, very valid discussion. But. I can ride my regular bike faster than my e-bike, but in shared spaces I slow on both.
In many instances it’s hard to tell ebikes from regular bikes, so ebikes from parks etc. isn’t practical. But a simple speed limit for cycles is. No?
for example, acceleration limits (with reference to the ground), not power limits. The same power output that can get me up a long steep hill at a moderate speed (like 20km/hr) without sweating, gives acceleration from 0 on the flat that is dangerous in shared spaces with pedestrians. Torque sensing helps with the latter situation but not so much the former (I think, haven't ridden them much).
I change power settings while riding to get the balance I want, but new riders often don't.