Yet in most US states, turning right on a red light is still allowed by default.

There's no evidence #RTOR does what it was meant to do: save fuel.

There is evidence that it increases the risks to pedestrians even when (especially when) they are using crosswalks and following traffic signals.

There's widespread acknowledgment that our longstanding focus on traffic flow kills people.

Why are we still turning right on red? This is the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Ban #RTOR.

#RoadSafety

@DrTCombs I had no idea it was originally meant to save fuel.

@ascentale yep, and we *still* have strident environmentalists claiming that having to wait for pedestrians is bad for the environment because it makes them burn more gas

@ascentale Much of today's "we mustn't do anything to cause congestion" thinking is rooted in the gas crisis of the 70s. Since then the spectre of congestion has been (misguidedly) attached to so many counterproductive urban transportation policies. It's a *very* handy boogeyman.

@DrTCombs @ascentale So much worry about congestion, so little support for trains, buses and other means of getting cars off the road.

@DrTCombs @ascentale Which begs the question of why a strident environmentalist is driving an internal combustion engine....

@DrTCombs @ascentale new since the 70s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

@DrTCombs Meanwhile, Alaska DOT still up here creating *new* death traps where motorists can bypass the light entirely, tripling the number of pedestrian crossings in any given direction. These intersections were just "improved" in the last couple years. And biking them is nearly impossible. "But look, we gave you 'refuge islands'." In hell traffic engineers spend eternity on the other side of the windshield from their worst designs. #CarCulture

@redrummy @DrTCombs @nerd4cities

@DrTCombs I'd like to see us introduce turn right on red here. As a country that drives on the left, it should introduce motorists to the fear and unpredictability that that we face when not in car.

I'm fully against introducing turn left on red.

@DrTCombs RTOR helps prevent vehicles from idling at a stop sign / stop light. The environmental impact of idling engines has been widely studied, and with those figures in mind RTOR makes great sense.

@DrTCombs Traffic lights need to do more to recognize when there is a danger and turn green if you can safely go. Self driving cars prove we can see cars, bikes and pedestrians (mostly), put the same technology on traffic lights and now we can save fuel by having it turn green before you arrive when it is safe and you have slowed down to a reasonable speed (something else that can be sensed - want to enforce speed limits, just ensure that someone who drives the limit has less red lights!). Many traffic lights around me have various barriers that a driver cannot see through/around easily so the cameras/sensors can be put where it drivers cannot see and so get a better understanding of what is going on.

@bluGill Cameras are actually still pretty bad at recognizing pedestrians though, whether they are on cars or on poles. And they are bad systematically, and they can be hacked. Clarifiying and simplifying the rules such as "red means don't go, always" would do a whole lot more to improve safety.

If traffic lights aren't in a location where drivers see them, that's a different problem that ought to be reported as an emergency.

@DrTCombs
Idle thought: if more cities ban RTOR, will more cities abandon signalized intersections and switch to roundabouts? RTOR can be convenient in some places, but usually where a roundabout would do a better and safer job.

@DrTCombs the main issue I see with this is that people already turn right on red even where it's not legal, and, at least where I live, traffic enforcement is almost non existent already, so adding another traffic crime is unlikely to change people's behavior.

Like, people here have learned you can run red lights with impunity (apart from the occasional t bone collision I suppose) so most people here already reflexively wait a couple seconds after green to go.

@DrTCombs all of which to say that while it probably makes sense to change it, it's not going to matter for years and years, if ever, unless there's a robust and aggressive effort to ticket it once it's illegal again.

Should also add I'm not actually a big fan of the current way traffic infractions are handled, or the police in general, so...

@etherdiver I definitely agree re policing of traffic infractions.

re RTOR, much of the problem does, I think, come from the lack of standardization. "Allowed by default except where they're not allowed" is just bad practice. In most of the rest of the world, red means you don't get to go. And it works. I agree it'll take us time to get there, and to make it truly effective we need to change the physical designs of our intersections, but we need to at least start down that path.

@mkaatman it'll be decades before all vehicles on the roads are automated, and until then, we can't have different rules for different vehicles. it'd be absolute mayhem.
when we do get there, lights may be obsolete (for better or worse). until then, we must design with the least attentive driver in mind.