Waving cyclists through stop signs when it's not their turn is not "helpful." It's confusing, frustrating, and puts us in harm's way.
@DrTCombs on a similar topic… Drivers, do NOT wave for someone to turn left in front of you, unless you’re certain that the coast is clear. Somebody on bike could be riding down the shoulder past you, or crossing by foot 🚶🏼♀️
Waving another motorist to turn is generally very dangerous
@tsyum Yep... just stop ad libbing traffic operations!
**being a motorist is generally very dangerous
They think they are doing the cyclist a "favor" since cyclists are so "put upon" for being who and where they are. In a larger and busier intersection, their attitude changes because the cyclist should not be there.
Behave and play well with others and all will be good at every intersection.
@DrTCombs Yes! If everyone just follows the rules and goes when it's their turn, it's safer and we're all out of each other's way a lot quicker.
@DrTCombs
A bicyclist got a ticket a few blocks from me, for not stopping, when the car driver waved them on. And we even have Idaho Stop.
@DrTCombs
In a bike safety class I attended a few years ago, they referred to this as an "illegal courtesy."
@MartyCormack
That's a brilliant term for it!
@DrTCombs Goes for all vehicles really. My driving school teacher used to say "stop that, you're not Mother Theresa" and he was right.
@DrTCombs This is why I don't make eye contact with divers at stop signs..... I know what the Right Of Way is and I'll wait for my turn and then go!
@ClintonAnderson
Right?? The eye-contact thing is so dumb. We already have a system for how these things work. We don't have to have a conversation about it.
Yes that!
Aaaand I live in a CarCentric Hellscape where, decades ago, the local police decided they were not going to bother even trying to enforce the provincial law covering excessive window tint..... So 8 cars out of 10, I can't even see the stupid driver anyway.
Cyclists, pedestrians, hell even other drivers SHOULD be able to make eye contact with the person in charge of a massive, fast moving, death machine.......
But when we cannot, we have to look out for ourselves, we have to assume that idiot can't and probably won't see us no matter what we do.
@DrTCombs @ClintonAnderson Here, we disagree.
Driving regs state who should (or shall) yield the Right of Way in certain situations. But no one “has” the ROW until it has been yielded to them. Assuming otherwise can be fatal, and cyclists are at a disadvantage relative to cars.
I always make eye contact; never assume.
@MarkBrigham @ClintonAnderson
I don't think anyone's saying "just go because it's your turn." Use common sense, don't go if you don't think you'll be yielded to.
But "safety" programs that rely on eye contact in any form are a load of horse crap. Not least because eyes aren't always visible and can't always be trusted even when they are visible.
This!
What we do on the water SHOULD be what we do on the roads....
On the water, "The right of way always goes to the more vulnerable user"
@ClintonAnderson @DrTCombs @MarkBrigham "power corrupts" also applies on the water, c.f. wake boats in Portland.
@enobacon @DrTCombs @MarkBrigham No system is perfect, as long as there are people involved.
But there are systems and there are systems
As I stated elsewhere, all too often, I cannot make eye contact with drivers, because our city has decided NOT to enforce provincial laws covering window tint.
So, I don't make eye contact, because I cannot make eye contact.
I wish I could.
Even if I could I wouldn't rely souly on it.
@DrTCombs I agree with this 100% and I also wish I had a better way to communicate to drivers what is going on for me on a bike in these cases. Berkeley drivers want to defer to bikes a lot! And I appreciate the sentiment! I just don't want to roll the dice that I've misunderstood or they're saying something else and now a collision is my fault since I didn't have legal right of way. I try to wave them on and then look away so I can't see whatever they might do to say "No, you first.”
@DrTCombs But I wish I had some better to communicate about it, since I *know* I appear impatient sometimes, and I know that many of these folks are trying to make space for bikers and that's not a bad motivation. If only more people drove with their windows down and at a slow speed.
@marcprecipice @DrTCombs Direct contact is important, and tinted car windows certainly do not help. If you’re able to make eye contact it is a lot easier to determine the intent of the other person. Side note: being able to make eye contact when on a bike allow the city of Groningen to put up signs like this.
I think you can guess the meaning without knowing Dutch…
@jeroenvanbergen @DrTCombs I experienced eye contact as being far more useful when biking in Amsterdam than I do when biking in Berkeley. I'm not sure why, exactly, but it seemed like drivers there were more interested in establishing that contact. (I had to translate the sign to really understand it!) I do think this is one of the concerns with so-called self-driving cars; no eyes to connect with.
@marcprecipice @jeroenvanbergen Yeah, I think eye contact means a lot more when you're biking in a place with a functioning safety culture. Where I am, eye contact can just as easily mean "I'm going to run you down" as "Hi, you go first."
@DrTCombs @marcprecipice Yes, I suspect that is mostly a cultural thing: how to interpret certain gestures or behaviour. Rules give clarity and if everybody follows them situations are supposed to be clear. Deviating from the rules creates confusion and even danger. It also depends on how confident you are in traffic.
@DrTCombs Are you waiting for me or did you just get distracted by your phone at that stop sign?
@DrTCombs it's kinda like they were trying to protect you from the next driver. I probably would have taken the turn in this case (here where rolling stops are legal on a bike) but there definitely are some places where the driver is not aware of what danger they're waving you into.
@enobacon Here's why I still wouldn't go.
1. I can't see the driver's intent because of the glare.
2. I don't know what the guy behind her is going to do. I can see his face, and it' doesn't look friendly. What anti-cyclist biases will Iwereinforce for him if we go out of turn?
3. I don't know what the driver behind me is going to do. Is he about to get impatient and pull around on my left if I do suddenly decide to go?....
...
4. It's a dangerous precedent. Yeah, it might have been safe to go out of turn in this situation, but maybe not next time. I don't want that driver thinking they've got the ability to adequately judge risk on my behalf.
5. We aren't in a safety stop state.
6. I have my kid with me. If I go out of turn I'll hear about it for weeks.
For us, there's no gray area.
@DrTCombs it's hard to tell from the video and you were there so it's your call. But, it looks like almost a tie or maybe the driver thought you were there first, maybe the kid was. I'm not sure how 3 is geometrically possible but yeah drivers try stupid stuff. Sad about 5, IMO that's the cause of this whole conflict, or this intersection could have been a roundabout.
@enobacon the video never captures the full extent of the egregiousness of drivers.
In this case, they'd beaten us to the intersection by several seconds. IMO we'd all have gotten through faster had they paused and proceeded than had the kid and I taken the wave-through.
@DrTCombs
we have a thing here in Pa.US
(Home of Drake's Well, home of the 'Turnpike', home of one of the 1st 'Motor Hotels {motels}, etc)
took me a few years to grok.
It's called 'The Pittsburgh Left'
predates 'rule of right-of-way' for automobility
seriously confusing
I'm used to it now
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left
@cpm this is batshit
Are you waving at me? Are you swatting at a fly? Are you trying to fling a booger?
I don't know!
So I'm just gonna sit here and wait my turn while you get your shit together.
#DontWaveMeThrough